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Jun 25, 2007, 01:55 PM // 13:55
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#21 | |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Quote:
I think Golden Skull Strike could be made viable by reducing the recharge so that you could maintain daze on a target constantly or near constantly while pressuring it with your favorite lead and dual. Like 10 or 12 second recharge. |
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Jun 25, 2007, 02:50 PM // 14:50
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#22 | |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Quote:
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Jun 25, 2007, 03:40 PM // 15:40
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#23 | |||
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Quebec
Guild: Pretty much stopped
Profession: Rt/
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Quote:
As for defensive shadowsteps ala Return, people accept them cause Monks widely use it and love it, but to say that it's better doesn't make much sense to me. When a warrior has to go through a bunch of snares and blinds and hexes to get in your backline to your monk that can just take a few step back and Return somewhere else, this is good? Not really, and the recharge is very short. I think that defensive shadowsteps are fine as a concept, but i think they should have a downside too. It goes back to something similar to what Zuranthium suggested before with his general shadowstep rules. What i'd see personally is either: 1) shadowstepping empties adrenaline and disables non-attack skills for 3s. 2) shadowstepping disables all skills for 3..0s, based on Critical Strike attributes. This way if a monk returns, fine. But he bought himself a 3s blackout so he might miss a spike. Note that if the spike was about to be on him, it's still worth it, but it would mean it's a tactical use not a 'whenever someone is in nearby range of me i click 8' skill. As for offensive shadowstepping, well the first option still allows Dervish and Warriors using energy skill to shadowstep and spike (but for Warrior it's becoming quite energy intensive) while the other doesn't. But for movement, it's still a good option for any class since you usually save more than 3s of movement on your shadowstep. Personally i'd favor the second option. Leave shadowstepping intact or nearly intact for Assassins, but make it so that other classes have a real price to pay for it. This way you don't need to mess around with much skills either, maybe just nerf Shadow Prison a bit. If you nerf straight kill combos too (offhand-dual-offhand-dual), then i don't really find Assassins using shadowsteps problematic. Because Assassins have other weaknesses to compensate for their use of shadowsteps, other classes don't. Quote:
Quote:
Afaik, Mesmers were never weak on spike assist either, and with spells from range that are harder to prevent. And pah, i'll check and post a bar later i have to go soon. But just one that i started using last night and that's the closest i got to it up to now: [skill]Black Spider Strike[/skill][skill]Black Lotus Strike[/skill][skill]Death Blossom[/skill][skill]Impale[/skill][skill]Siphon Strength[/skill][skill]Siphon Speed[/skill] and an optional slot, i went for [skill]Dark Prison[/skill] but you can fit some self-defense, self-heal, interrupt, enchant removal, etc. The 2 x offhand + dual could be switched for Lead-offhand-dual if one damn combo using this system was viable. With this i can easily stay in the backline with a spear and shield hexing their attackers with snares and a very strong damage reduction, do mini spikes on them or spike assist on others, but also spike overextenders hard, useful on split if someone else has heal/condition removal since you can shutdown an attacker, snare and kill, etc. Imo this could actually replace a 3rd hexer in a hex setup (say using this along with a Migraine Mes and Reaper's Necro or w/e). Last edited by Patccmoi; Jun 25, 2007 at 06:48 PM // 18:48.. |
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Jun 25, 2007, 08:48 PM // 20:48
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#24 |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Feb 2007
Guild: Sons of Metal
Profession: N/
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I find myself dead too often to allow myself to agree that Assassins suck.
On a serious note, Assassins, imo, are the only non-core class that is designed well, even if some skills need tweaks. They come in, hit very hard and then have to (or they should) run if they did not get the kill: They assassinate. You said it yourself you hate they way they play. Well, I know many people who love it. Should they lose their favorite playing style? |
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Jun 25, 2007, 10:27 PM // 22:27
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#25 | |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Nov 2005
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Quote:
The concept of assassinations in GW is just so bad that it hurts me to think about it. Solo-spikes should not be feasible, and especially not in a way that requires no thought of positioning or skill in general. Scrubs with no skill should not be able to run up close to someone, hit 1-2-3-4-5, and kill them. And the only time that I thought that assassins were designed fairly well was pre-nightfall. Before then, with the only real assassin templates being variations on the AoD sin, they were okay. You either had a decent combo that could kill granted the enemy didn't use any self-heal, but you still had some utility with stuff like ddagger, or you had a powerful combo that could kill solo but was very fragile (horns/falling). AoD was also fun because you could pull some cool tricks with it, but it took some thought. |
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Jun 25, 2007, 10:41 PM // 22:41
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#26 | |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Guild: Black Rose Gaming [BR]
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Quote:
A/Mo 11+1 Dagger 10+1+1 Crit Strikes 10+1 Deadly Arts 1 Healing Prayers Disrupting Dagger Dark Prison Black Lotus Strike Twisting Fangs Siphon Strength Siphon Speed Deadly Haste Rez Chant It's less damage than if you use the 4 attack skills, but you get an interrupt on a 6 second recharge, hard rez, and your Siphon abilities become faster. So much potential out there for the class. ~Z |
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Jun 25, 2007, 11:58 PM // 23:58
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#27 | |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Quebec
Guild: Pretty much stopped
Profession: Rt/
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Quote:
I played with it a lot and i actually seriously like it now. It's a very strong debuff similar to giving shield of absorption on crack to anyone that guy hits. I mean a sin, axe and sword warrior basically only hits 0s out of crits/attack skills and then they deal low damage. Hammer becomes about as threatening as daggers on auto-attack. It's maybe not as good as 50% miss (depends on the situation really), but it's 10/1/10 AND also helps you on offense cause using it on a caster before you combo will likely get you 50ish more damage with 2-3 extra crits, and it can help you on emanagement by hitting a Siphoned target... It's overall quite versatile and a hex that can be worth throwing on just about anyone in different situations, and it can be kept on 1.5 people at medium spec. At 10/1/10 it seems quite balanced to me. Sure i'd prefer it with something like 25% crit but working on everyone, but i wouldn't say it's required for the skill to be good. But at least a build like that is versatile. You can switch the utility a bit on it, but you can play offensive, defensive, spike assist, kinda solo-spike (but not fast or straight kill, so it's more like to get overextenders), etc. It plays more like a caster than a melee, but hell that's what a sin is if you don't wanna end up squished. |
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Jun 26, 2007, 12:22 AM // 00:22
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#28 | |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Mar 2006
Guild: The Benecia Renovatio [RenO]
Profession: Mo/
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Quote:
I wouldn't put it past the 'professionals' at ANET, but I honestly hope the design of the Assassin was not inspired by a question like this; "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if you could solo-kill people by hitting buttons in the right order?". |
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Jun 26, 2007, 12:51 AM // 00:51
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#29 | |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Aug 2005
Guild: Servants of Fortuna
Profession: E/Me
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Quote:
I agree with the general sentiment that Assassins should have been more towards killing through debilitation instead of towards stupidly strong solo spikes. There's little spots of it here and there, but they're not well developed, as if one day they just gave up and said "screw it, this is too hard, let's just have them do crazy damage combos" Unfortunately, there's nearly zero chance that they get anything like the rework they need, so I'd be alright if they just destroyed Black Lotus Strike and Shadow Prison. |
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Jun 26, 2007, 12:07 PM // 12:07
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#30 | |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: In Your Head
Guild: The Brave Will Fall [Nion]
Profession: Me/
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Quote:
 This game is trying to be too newbie friendly IMO.
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Jun 26, 2007, 04:20 PM // 16:20
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#31 |
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Academy Page
Join Date: May 2007
Guild: Belarusian Standard Time
Profession: A/Rt
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The problem I have with most assassins is that most players use the gimmicky builds... why? Because they know they work, and why fix what isn't broken? I personally have my own assassin builds which are incredibly different to most standard assassins. The problem is that my builds are vulnerable to the very same "Spike! Spike!" you guys have been complaining about.
With nightfall, the deadly arts skills got a major boost they needed, but deadly arts still needs improvement. As for dagger mastery and critical strikes, I think they're pretty much at where they need to be. I annihilate things in pve with no trouble at all. The problem comes in pvp, where shadow arts doesn't return as much defense or healing, as, say, tactics does for a warrior. My biggest issue is the lack of defense assassins have. If they weren't so vulnerable, different builds would be more likely to flourish. But since they're relatively weak, and easy to kill, they're forced into using spikes that get the job done before they're dead. |
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Jun 27, 2007, 09:56 AM // 09:56
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#32 |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Liverpool
Profession: Mo/
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The warrior has quite a few viable skillbars to play with and each one gives it a different stlye of play. I would say that their are 9-10 elites I would consider for a warrior with three of them having different bars for each weapon. Then there are other choices for each of those bars, do I bring Distracting Blow, Wild Blow, Bulls Strike for utility. There is the further decision to us healing signet or not?
Nobody complains about the lack of versatilty in the warrior or that its style of play is Skillless? If we look at the ranger next it has almost the exact same bar and attribute spread no matter the elite choice whether it be BA, Cripshot or BHA. Nobody complains that these bars are IMBA or require little skill to play. Then the ranger does have other niche bars like rspike,thumper which people wont use unless they are running a 1-D gimmick - the pressure build is not so bad :P The reasons the ranger sees play in a balanced build is that Distracting Shot and Savage Shot are so good and he can survive and kill in a split situation. My point is that one bar is eneogh to salvage a class in balanced builds. This is why I have asked for just one bar that isnt overpowered and could actually see play. I have never got to play an offensive character in a KGYU style pressure build due to all my monking. I think a sin could see play in one of these builds due to the ability to enchantment remove. Joe |
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Jun 28, 2007, 01:10 PM // 13:10
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#33 |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Feb 2006
Guild: Striking Distance
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I agree with the majority of sentiments in this thread, if we can't hammer sins completely out of the relevant game, at least promote them to use flexible bars with 3-skill combos like old sword wars.
For a look at the state of sins (after any recent nerfs they may have taken), has anyone seen the hero battle skillbar for winning an iPod & Graphics card? Expose Defenses->Shadow Prison->Tiger stance->Black Lotus->Horns->Black Spider->Blades->Impale All 8 skills dedicated to a single combo to kill someone. Bad skill balance. However, if you want to make a credible argument, you may as well get the terminology straight. A skill being 'passive' has a specific meaning, which is not the same as a skill being too effective for the amount of effort/skill put into using it. Return is not passive defense. |
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Jun 28, 2007, 01:56 PM // 13:56
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#34 | |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Quote:
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Jun 28, 2007, 09:21 PM // 21:21
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#35 | |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Feb 2006
Guild: Striking Distance
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Quote:
And it's only harder to do in regard to convincing izzy to actually blast sins. Every time he talks about skill balance, you hear that paranoia about knocking stuff too hard like ether renewal. But the fact is, who the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO misses ether renewal? |
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Jun 29, 2007, 04:16 AM // 04:16
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#36 | |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Quebec
Guild: Pretty much stopped
Profession: Rt/
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Quote:
11+1 Deadly Arts 11+1+1 Dagger Mastery 8 Critical Strikes Black Lotus Strike Black Spider Strike Death Blossom Impale Siphon Strength Siphon Speed Shadow Walk Dash If a good 3 hit combo ever exists, it could replace BLS-BSS-DB, but right now i think that's the best you can do with 3 attack skills. It's a very flexible chain that can do a strong, full chain spike or constant small spikes (good for spike assist). The way i play this is as backline/midline guy, sitting there handling warriors. Siphon Strength and Siphon Speed on them so they have trouble pressuring. Since you're always watching them it's pretty easy to know if they're gunning for you and you just Dash away, or Siphon Strength the guy if it's recharged, etc. I rarely died. Then when you want to spike assist, say warrior calls a target, you can just Shadow Walk, combo, and Dash to come back. Works really well and we got many kills doing that. In ganks, Siphon Speed and Siphon Strength are really powerful. Siphon Strength just negates the damage of a guy, and when it's like a single warrior you pretty much took him out in full with it (you hardly care whatever he does afterwards if his damage is 0, 5, 0, 0...). Siphon Speed is a nice snare, and if people are at full spell range and you can't get it you can Shadow Walk to them to use it. I think that the core of the current good potential sin setup that can fill that 'melee mesmer' role is in there. Something like: 12-13 DM 8 CS some DA and/or other line if you use a secondary BLS BSS DB Impale Hex Hex Shadowstep optional (rez, other shadowstep or cancel if you use Shadow Walk, self-defense, some other utility like condition removal, etc.) Now if OTHER utility was made viable on sin, you could likely switch your utility. For example, you could be a monk/caster shutdown if Shroud of Silence was made better, like not disabling your spells for 15s (which would take out your ability to do anything else for those 15s) and maybe slightly better recharge. If Shroud of Silence was like 10/.75/25 with 5s spell disable (i understand why they don't want you to be able to cover hex yourself), it could be a viable elite. You could play in the backline snaring with Siphon Speed for example, then Shadow Walk to a monk on spike and Shroud him + combo. Would be viable char. And Shroud of Silence in split would totally own solo caster. But atm Shroud of Silence hurts you too much for the effect. Other hexes that i find interesting atm is going /N. For example you can go Spoil Victor and Mark of Subversion with 11 Blood. Mark of Subversion is great to spike, Spoil Victor is great to annoy people. If you go /Me you can add Blackout which is interesting if you got a shadowstep. Etc. It would be nice to if more interesting utility option was available to Sin themselves to fill this role. Atm the only ones i can see all in all is Shattering Assault and Assault Enchantment, which would be GREAT for spike assist, but there isn't any decent enough good non-elite utility to make an interesting bar overall. Like Mark of Death just doesn't do enough on that long recharge and all to be worth it and would need some extra effect to be interesting (for example if it's removed prematurely the guy takes 40..88 damage, which would make it good for spike assist as you could use it for combo opener and if it's removed your combo is screwed but at least this thing hurt. If not it still helps with healing reduction. Or an interesting shutdown ability like 'spells cast by target foe on himself cast 100% slower', which would be like a Migraine but only for self-targetted spells, which would help against solo monks for instance, or to prevent people from using Mending Touch). Things like Mark of Instability, Iron Palm, Entangling Asp, their recharge and/or energy cost are too high to use them well for the kd effect unless you're in Deadly Paradox which kinda screws most sin build you'd want to make. Blinding Powder duration/recharge ratio is bad on top of being in Shadow Arts (and tbh, there's like NOTHING you'd want in Shadow Arts atm in a competitive build, except maybe Feigned. But all the utility is attrocious). Caltrops is laughable at 10E/20s recharge compared to other cripple option considering how good condition removal is and the fact that siphon speed exists, it would need to add damage or another effect. Lift Enchantment is kinda stupid and would be much more interesting and versatile if it was something like 10/.25/12, removes one enchant from target foe, if target foe is knocked down removes an extra one. Mark of Insecurity and Wastrel's Demise are attrocious and could be TOTALLY reworked in more valuable mesmerish effect. Shameful Fear is funny but not really doing enough to be useful out of a laugh in RA (nobody with a LoD monk would give a damn about it and they'd be glad for the speed buff). Mirrored Stance is a joke. Etc... Fix those utility so that they're worth bringing and have good uses (and if there's enough non-hex ones worth bringing maybe you can work without hexes, if a lead-offhand-dual chain is ever viable), and you could see the above template expands. And sins could find a role there, as some kind of melee mesmer with strong single target shutdown, strong ability to spike (or more pressure) other team's frontline and kill overextenders or shadowstep to assist spiking their mid/backline, and very strong gank/soloing ability because of his single target shutdowns that can make a group of 1-3 players at a big disadvantage. Atm i'm actually satisfied with the bar i run and i don't feel any skill in there needs a buff. Siphon Strength just got buffed last patch though, it wasn't viable before. If the rest can be done to a couple of elites and a couple of non-elite skills, the utility on the bar could vary. And if lead-offhand-dual combos are buffed and one becomes interesting, it might be possible to fit in there too. But atm, appart from SP sin, it's the only interesting sin template i played in a long time that after playing multiple games satisfied me every game and i never felt useless. Hell, we faced a team with 3 Aegis, BSurge, Ward against Melee and Paragon with Watch Yourself! and i still managed to score kills a bit through that (mostly on warriors, but some spike assist on Mesmers too) and controlled their warriors in the meantime. It wasn't perfect, but i still felt USEFUL, which just doesn't happen when i use any other kind of sin against that. Last edited by Patccmoi; Jun 29, 2007 at 04:29 AM // 04:29.. |
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Jun 29, 2007, 12:35 PM // 12:35
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#37 |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Nov 2005
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IMO, remove deadly paradox, and rebalance all the deadly and shadow skills. A lot of those skills are limited simply because deadly paradox exists, and if you removed that, you could actually balance them without worrying about breaking them.
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Jun 29, 2007, 12:43 PM // 12:43
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#38 | |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Quebec
Guild: Pretty much stopped
Profession: Rt/
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Quote:
But i'd like to see Deadly Haste buffed slightly and Deadly Paradox nerfed. It does prevent proper balancing of most Assassin skills since you always have to wonder 'how will it be in Deadly Paradox?'. But i'd much rather see the problematic skill nerfed, Deadly Paradox, than the full assassin utility balanced around it. |
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Jun 29, 2007, 03:38 PM // 15:38
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#39 |
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Feb 2006
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It's really almost too bad they weren't just conditional attacks, rather than chains.
For example Nine tails strike. Rather than: "Dual Attack. Must follow an off-hand attack. Nine Tail Strike cannot be "blocked" and strikes for +15...35 damage if it hits." Have it be something like: "Dual Attack. Strike for +1-20 damage. If this attack follows an off-hand attack, This skill can't be blocked and does an addition +5-15 damage". That way theres a point to the chain system, and having one blocked/miss/whatever doesn't rend the entire thing useless, although you lose quite a bit of its punch. That also leaves things to be balanced on damage/effect/cost/recharge/etc. rather than making things overpowered simply because they require a full chain to get off. |
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Jun 30, 2007, 02:59 AM // 02:59
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#40 | |
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has 3 pips of HP regen.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Guild: The Objective Is More [Cash]
Profession: W/
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Deadly Paradox = Assassin version of pre-nerf Mantra of Persistance.
Quote:
The difference between nerfing broken crap until it's non-viable and then nudging it up versus slowly inching it down to the "right level" is that the first option doesn't leave broken crap in the game and the second does. Last edited by Riotgear; Jun 30, 2007 at 08:32 AM // 08:32.. |
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